Accessibility and Inclusivity with Katie Merrien.

Tom: Hello and welcome to the Make Things Better podcast. Today I'm joined by Katie Merrien. Welcome on the show, Katie.

Katie: Thank you.

Tom: How are you doing today?

Katie: Really good. Excited to be here.

Tom: Thanks for coming and coming all this way as well. You've come from Brighton haven’t you?

Katie: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Excited to be here. Manchester's lovely. So. Yeah. Yeah.

Tom: Thank you so much. So do you want to start off by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you're doing at the moment?

Katie: Sure. So, yeah, I'm Katie, and my business I've got is, CommuniKate Design with a K because I really like a pun. And it was going to be CommuniKatie It didn't sound as good. So, I basically set up my own business five years ago went full time two years ago. And what I do is make information more accessible and inclusive. So I turn complicated information or, big blocks of text into images, pictures, infographics, animations. I do something called graphic recording, which is a live version of drawing infographics, basically. So at meetings, lots of felt tips. And I work with lots of different people to turn things that are really complicated and something that everybody can understand.

Tom: Yeah. Amazing. I really want to explore graphic recording more throughout this this talk at some point. But just first of all, how did you get into like accessibility and inclusive designing and how did you like become aware that this was a problem in in society as well?

Katie: Okay. So so I used to work for the NHS, so my career before this is completely different to actually what I do now. I'm self-taught in all the stuff I do now. I guess I've always been quite creative, but my background was working in, the public sector and then I was working in the NHS. I did, the kind of management of meetings, and then I did some contract work, and then I did, program management. And I was quite good at it because I'm very organized, and I enjoyed doing, things that were still helping people, but it was quite indirect, you know, I was designing services that were good for a big population, but I wasn't really getting to interact with patients. So people that were using it and I'm really extrovert, I like chatting to people. So that's kind of missing that element. but also I realised that when people became experts in what they were doing, and especially in the NHS, which is an acronym in itself, they use lots of jargon and acronyms. And it's like, I go to these meetings and I'd be taking minutes and they'd be using so many words, I think I'm not sure what that means. And they'd be members of the public that I'm like, well, they definitely don't know what that means because there's such a complicated language that's used in lots and lots of different sectors. And I thought, this is a way. So when I was writing the minutes of those meetings, I would translate that into something that was, easier in terms of written information. But I think that's when I started to become aware that if you wrote it exactly how people said it, when they were experts in those sorts of areas, a lot of people wouldn't understand it.

Tom: Yeah, yeah. So I think that the point about the NHS using a lot of words that like jargons that can go down even through to like just like small, quite significant like conversations. So one example I know was like when my mum goes to hospital, she'll have a conversation with a console consultant and quite often she doesn't really know what he's talking about or what she's talking about. And then she'll come home and she's quite confused. And I think having that certainty over like, okay, what line of treatment is she on next? What the side effects going to be, what stage is she out with her treatment? Whatever it is that's like really, really valuable. And so that like language kind of barrier really as is so, so important, especially in the NHS. And then in every area of life as well though. So do you want to share how you, how do you go about like writing down that jargon. And what do you do if you like, you don't know what that jargon is and that and it's not just writing down is it it's drawing, it’s illustrating and and yeah, just just to just answer the whole question. I feel like there's a lot there to uncover.

Katie: Absolutely. so I suppose that from the perspective of things, I don't know, I, I'm quite confident person. So going into those meetings and so on as well, if necessary, I would if it was a big public meeting, I'd probably make a note and come back to it later on for the kind of the write up. if I wasn't kind of participating in the meeting myself, but in general, I would just ask somebody there and then, which is a lot easier to do if you're an extrovert or if you're someone that feels confident in that situation. And that was also me within a working environment, like you were saying about, coming to a health care appointment. That's a very different environment for someone that's coming into that kind of getting that diagnosis or talking to a medical professional about something. And that can be really stressful place as well, I think. And when someone's feeling stressed or anxious anyway, taking in that information can be a lot harder. Whereas when I was at those meetings or, you know, at events and so on, I've got my piece of paper with me, I've got my notebook. So my notebook gets to be filled with shorthand writing, and now it's full of doodles basically. Instead, because it's a lot more engaging for me to kind of look back later as well. And it's always good to practice my graphic recording, I guess. Anyway, in any conversation that I'm in. so I think I just maybe have a bit of a natural ability to this bit's probably been honed by taking minutes for a really long time at meetings in my previous career, listening to those conversations and identifying the key information and finding a way to capture that in in a written format. But now I'm translating that into what's the key information and what are the icons that I could use to explain that to other people and doing it in that format instead?

Tom: At what point did you transition from writing down, using words to starting to like, doodle?

Katie: So that was, I think, about 6 or 7 years ago I was working, so I basically around that sort of time where I wanted to do something as a bit more creative or what was an organization that's a bit more creative. And I, I'd found an NHS provider that was basically as close to a fun agency vibe as you could find, probably within the NHS, they had like fake grass, instead of carpet one of their rooms and that table football, that kind of vibe. and my manager was really encouraging, always looking for kind of innovative ways of doing things, and he showed me a graphic recording. I'd never seen one before. He showed me this piece of paper with, this kind of visual, capturing of a conversation that happened at this event. You know, these beautiful graphics. He said, I think, you know, you can quite like this because I guess he got that I was creative. I've always been creative in other ways, you know wearing dresses to work that I made out duvet covers that kind of that kind of thing. and I loved it. And I was like, what is this? I've never seen that. How is that a thing? How can I make that thing? So around that time, basically because I'd got to the point in my career where I wasn't in charge of taking the minutes at the meetings anymore, but I was there obviously listening at meetings. And I think with my memory, I have to write stuff down anyway. So I was like, I'm going to start having a practice with drawing instead, but in a very low-key kind of low-pressure environment where I was doing it just in my notebook in front of me, and no one else could see, it's not like now, where I stand up in front of the whole room of people and everyone's watching me try and draw, you know, the telephone or the light bulb, whatever it might be. so it was a bit trial and error at first, if I remember, one of the first drawings I did in my notebook was of a Kit Kat, because, there's something about taking a break. And I was like, everyone knows that one. So, I mean, the marketing of Kit Kat is excellent. Basically. so I started from there I think.

Tom: Oh I love that, is it ever, I don't know, like, I don't know, obviously the work you do is so, so important. How do you feel about people ever like comparing it to, like, Pictionary?

Katie: I think that's I love Pictionary. I think that's fine because ultimately a Pictionary is. Yeah, I guess it's a version of what I do. and it's, I think that I've realized from kind of the last few years of working and what I do that the stuff I create is fun. It's it's not, it's not making light of subjects, but it's an easier way for people to engage because even with difficult or complex subjects, I think having a bit of levity and a bit of like the human aspect of, yeah, kind of, I don't know, the start of my drawing, I suppose, is a bit more childlike, and the characters I make in my animations are quite cartoony. but that's just a really engaging way for people to kind of understand stuff. So I'm pretty good at Pictionary.

Tom: I bet you are. Practice at it for a living. That's it.

Katie: Yeah, probably is probably cheating. I variation play. the thing is,

Tom: The thing is I guess often like seeing someone visually like you can really understand, like, the story better from other than just, like, words. Unless you're like a master of words. But sometimes meeting minutes can be quite boring. So it can be kind of hard to understand, like, okay, well, what do we actually need to do next? Or what have we actually talked about in this meeting? But I can personally definitely see how visually this would like, be really, really useful to take something away. And the other thing is I don't know if like evolution comes into this or not, but I mean, a long, long time ago, we, we did like, tell. I mean, we shared information through, through, visuals, right? Like, you know, we think about, like, cavemen.

Katie: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So true.

Tom: So I think there's definitely something to it. And I just think it's such an interesting world because hypothetically, we could live in a world where most minutes well not most, but a lot more minutes than they are now taken. Yeah. With drawings. Right.

Katie: Yeah, I think I, I'm not anti-words. I think that words are important and I think through everything I do I try and advocate for choice because one size is never going to fit everyone. And I know there are some people where visuals isn't the way they'd want to engage, but I think that visual summaries are so much more universal. If you think about, as you say, with pictures, I normally give examples of things like when you go to the airport in another country, you know where to find your luggage because you've got that little symbol of a bag. So you can kind of follow the arrows, or Ikea furniture doesn't have any words and instructions of how to put it together. I'm still not very good at putting it together, but like, that's not due to the. That's not just the instructions. Like they are genius. I think that's just. Yeah, that's not how I'm wired or something. but having like, pictures, as you say, is a much easier way for people to engage with it, understand it, take it away. I've had some really lovely feedback from events that I've done. I've done a series of events for a musculoskeletal health company, and they they invited members of the public to these conversations these days where they talked about service improvements and they all fed in their ideas. And I drew these big graphic summaries of what I'd been talking about during the day. And then at later events, I'd have all the previous ones displayed on the wall. and, and people came in, who hadn't attended any previous events, people with dyslexia, people who are neurodivergent. And they said, oh my goodness, I can understand what's happened here. And as you say, a big block of minutes to some people, that's a barrier in terms of accessibility anyway. But also it isn't particularly engaging for a lot of people. and trying to kind of you can't really skim read big blocks of minutes to find the really key information, but because I'm kind of doing that process as the filter first, then I suppose seeing the visuals, it's a lot easier for people to see what's really important.

Tom: Yeah, absolutely. And you, you do the video recording, graphics, taking the minutes. You also do a lot of work around accessibility in other areas as well don’t you. You do want to tell us a bit more around what what you do in terms of accessibility?

Katie: Sure. I mean, I'm just I suppose just a big champion of it. And I realized when I was setting up my business, I was kind of looking at all these different skills that I learned and trying to work out what it was I was trying to offer other people. And originally it was about simplicity and kind of stripping away all the complicated things to make it more understandable. But over time, I've realized how passionate I am about accessibility and inclusion. So historically, say working for the NHS. I've been going through the letters that have been sent out to patients with a group of patient partners who are all kind of contributing about what was difficult and championing, taking out all that really complicated information to say, like your mum of a whoever it might be, they want to understand exactly what their health condition is and what happens next in a way that's really clear to them. You don't want just understanding what it is about your health condition to be the first barrier to kind of getting, getting well, so but then over time, because I've wanted to make things that are more accessible and inclusive for everybody, I say offering choice is important. I try and make everything as accessible as I can to as many demographic groups as possible, because I realize there are lots of people out there that have barriers to understanding, just because of it's like the social disability model of the way that the world is ultimately, so it might be someone with a visual impairment or someone who's neurodivergent or someone with a different primary language, or a child or someone with dyslexia. There's all these different, groups of people, all of whom have individual needs and preferences. and I want to try and make things that are inclusive of all of those people that I'm often excluded, I think, or maybe can't access the information because it's written. So for anything where I personally don't have a lived experience of that, I do my research, I talk to people. I'm not saying I'm an expert, I'm always learning, but I try my absolute best to try and bring everything that I've learned into the stuff that I make.

Tom: I love that so much. So going out and talking to the people who maybe are being excluded at the moment and understanding, okay, what do they actually need then? Because I mean that there's no better way to do it than not. It has to start with the people who are being excluded at the moment. Have you found doing this work like what what what like the impacts, I suppose, of people being excluded. And it must be so big.

Katie: Absolutely. Well, it's, it's it depends on who you are talking to about kind of what what you're kind of highlighting as the potential impact for them because there are some businesses or business owners that are very aware of the importance of including people, because if it's someone like a local council they are providing a service that caters to everybody, so they need to make sure that everybody can access their council tax bill or, know how to get in touch with their social care team or whatever it might be. So part of that is about accessibility in terms of digital accessibility like websites and so on as well, but also providing that information to people about day-to-day basic requirements that they might need to meet. so obviously, for that kind of perspective, people are missing out on things that are really crucial to daily life because they don't know how to access that information they don't know exists. they may just not have a way of kind of finding out what they need. and then there are other businesses where maybe that's not at the forefront of them, their mind yet. I think people are becoming more conscious about accessibility being really important, because why would you want to exclude anybody? Like what? Like I don't think anyone is going to stand up and say, like, I'd really like to exclude these groups of people from my business, but that's kind of what they're doing because they're not being inclusive. so from that perspective, I guess you can go down the financial route of there are lots of people that would probably want to be your customers if you cater to them by, creating information about your business that they could access and make them feel seen and understood. Because I think if someone thinks, well, this business doesn't get me and who I am, they're not going to buy from them. Yeah, kind of both sides.

Tom: Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of a lot of reasons to make content accessible for sure. Do you think there's any reason why organizations make content inaccessible, and then maybe they're maybe not doing this, consciously or thinking about it, but is there any like, main reasons that stand out to you?

Katie: I think, as I say, I don't think it's conscious. I don't think anyone is proactively trying to exclude people. I think that we as humans tend to, tend to default in the communication methods that are the easiest for us. And our world is very wired towards written communication. If you think about meeting minutes or writing a report or applying for a, I don't know, a grant or, getting an email or text message or all those things, that's that's kind of how the world's been working for a really long time about apart from cave paintings. so but that's kind of been, that's kind of been the default. And because that is the default, and for a lot of people, writing is is okay. They kind of carry on with the writing, but also trying to make things accessible. It is complicated and it costs money. That's the other thing as well. But but from, you know, talking to other people who are championing accessibility as well or at that kind of tipping point, hopefully soon, where people are starting to realize if you build it, whatever the product or the website or the app or the communication method or the service, if you build that predominantly thinking about, or like initially thinking about all the potential barriers and removing those first, it doesn't cost that much more because we can have all these templates, these building blocks, ready to create other things, and we're already aware of the barriers that might be there. And let's proactively remove those before we kind of start. there'll always be evolution around that, I think, because I say every individual is different. we're always learning more about the best ways to make things accessible. And each service or individual will have kind of unique factors. But that's a really good place to start. I think thinking about all the ways in which we can make stuff more accessible right up front. Retrofitting it, I think, is something that again, cost more money later on. And also while some elements of accessibility arn’t legally required. That's also the thing that ultimately you can end up getting financially penalized for. And I just, I don't know, very naively, but I'm like, also, why wouldn't you want to include everybody in the first place?

Tom: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Do you think there has been a shift in recent years towards creating websites and digital that is more accessible?

Katie: Yeah, absolutely. There's more guidelines around that now. And that's stuff that I'm still learning about because as I come into all of this, kind of from a completely different background and everything I'm picking up is kind of stuff that I'm learning for myself and trying to do my research around. And there's, you know, there's a whole internet out there for me to read. So it's kind of trying to pick the bits that I think are going to be the most help from talking to other people who kind of got that advice around. This is something that's really useful. but yeah there's loads of guidelines now. The guidelines now though, are basically, step by step instructions on kind of how to double check how your website's working, how your apps are working. and then I'm also a big champion of just getting a focus group of your users together, your patients, your clients, whoever it might be. Because, getting feedback from people who are already using it is so critical in identifying those things that you might not have thought about for individuals

Tom: Talking about things that you may not have thought about has there been anything that has surprised you on your journey around accessibility and inclusive design?

Katie: I think that I think it's just been more kind of learning as I go about how to balance some of those aspects, because I suppose I've set myself up quite a big challenge in trying to make stuff as accessible for everybody because, as I say, one size doesn’t fits all. So I'm trying to make it accessible for still the majority of people. And I don't mean like the majority is in the people that don't have any of those characteristics. I mean, like as many people as possible. so I've had to change stuff that I've created in the way I've worked and stuff I've created over the years. I used to work with much brighter colors, for example. because I was like, oh, they're engaging and fun, and I really like yellow. So I was like  I'm gonna put like the yellow everywhere. Turns out, yellow isn't particularly helpful for, some people with autism or certain kinds of neurodivergent. They find that a really overstimulating color. So now I work in pastel colors. They're not my favorite, but they're more accessible. So that's what I'm going to do because, like, it's not a big change for me, but it makes a huge difference for other people. So yeah.

Tom: So interesting. I would never have known that.

Katie: Yeah, yeah.

Tom: When you were saying like about yellow, I was more thinking of like maybe a contrast contrast checker. You know, like a wcag guidelines. But yeah, I've never come across, how like colours can, can be perceived by different groups of people in different ways and maybe be maybe more stimulating, or less accessible in various ways. so interesting.

Katie: Absolutely. Yeah because as you say with colors, there's so many like, layers to it because it's got contrast checking where you're thinking about, does the text sufficiently stand out against the background? But that's that's for all different kinds of visual impairments as well. You have to think about that. And then also is it still legible, if you will, to look at it in, well, black and white theoretically. But if you essentially turn that into a monochrome, web page would that still be visible also, I use obviously a lot of infographics and icons in my work. So things like ticks and crosses and, you know, signs with the kind of slash to like, you get like a road sign kind of, you know, stop or whatever it might be. But I have to be conscious that I can't use solely colour to kind of to connote anything in the work that I make as well, because if someone can't see colour that they're not going to have to tell the difference between those two elements as well. So yeah, there's a lot to kind of think about, but I really like a challenge anyway. So I think it's quite it's quite a fun one to work out and always learning about that stuff. Just I'd hoped it means that my work's getting better every time.

Tom: Yeah, I love it. And you can always learn, I guess. And that's the amazing thing.

Katie: Absolutely.

Tom: Just keep on learning about this. This stuff. And it's great that it is becoming more accessible and there's such a long way to go, but things are heading in the right direction. And with the guidelines in place, I think more and more companies are hopefully adhering to it. But I do still too often see websites that I just totally inaccessible, and I think there's still a lack of awareness around it. for a lot of people, because I know up until working at Hive IT, I wasn't very aware of this stuff. And then once you learn a bit more about it, it's hard not to. It's hard to like unknow that stuff,

Katie: Yep

Tom: you know?

Katie: Absolutely

Tom: So once you know, you know, yeah, I still have so much learning to do. Hence why I wanted to talk with you and other people about accessibility.

Katie: Yeah, I totally get that. And yeah, I'm you know, I definitely do as well as I think from not having lived experience to some of those conditions as things that you don't think about day to day, there are always things to be learning about. But if you're passionate about it and kind of wanting and open to learning, then it's a really exciting journey to be going on. Because yeah, lots of other companies or individuals are doing the same. yeah. To kind of get to hopefully a world where things are just a bit more accessible for people in general.

Tom: Yeah, yeah. What's sort of projects have you been working on?

Katie: I've got, I've got a few different things going on at the moment which is really nice actually. So some of them are kind of more, I guess personal projects in terms of stuff around my business because, yeah, people seem to be quite intrigued about who I am and what I do, which is really, really nice. so yeah, I've been drawing an article today, an interview for a local magazine who have offered me a chance to essentially be interviewed rather than them interview me and write it down because of what I do. They said, maybe I could just basically draw an interview. So I've been drawing a comic strip, which isn't something I've done before, but that's really fun. And I like kind of coming up with creative solutions to stuff. So, yeah, I've got, an animation underway that I'm working with a local author, to make a little avatar of her, it's going to be, like a little cartoon version of her. It's going to be talking in this, video for the Kickstarter for her book that she's publishing, which is really exciting. Learning to make avatars like little cartoon versions of people has been a really fun thing to do, actually, because I've got I've got a little cartoon of myself and she, is in some of the videos that I make. And then if I go to, say, a networking event, if I know the time slot that I've got for my business pitch, I'll make a video of that length and then I can play that rather than stand up and talk, because my work so visual, I think, why not show people? But I also feel like I should package that as a service for introverts basically as well. Like if you don't want to stand up and pitch in front of 50 people, I'll make a tiny version of you and they can do it instead.

Tom: Yeah, that's a good idea. You know, I think a lot of people who benefit from that, I'd, I'd quite like that in some ways as well. you say there's any, like, tips or advice that you would give to other people based on what you've learned in terms of accessibility and ensuring that websites or apps or whatever it is that people are creating in terms of content, are more accessible?

Katie: yeah, I think it's really it's really good to have some tools available. To help people that maybe don't have characteristics that might be creating barriers or, you know, society creating barriers to these characteristics. To think about how different people might access that information or not be able to access that information. There's a free, kind of person generator called cards for humanity, very different to the card game. so that one basically it does generate you two cards, but much happier ones of, a person and then some characteristics about them.

Tom: Which one came first, do you think?

Katie: I think cards against I would seem so, yeah. So I don't know. I guess that maybe the card fans the cards for humanity. Big fans of it, I don't know. But yeah, very, very different vibe. Like so basically you can press a button, it'll give you an example of a person and then some personality traits or yeah, some, some kind of potential barriers for them in terms of accessing information. So that's just a really handy way you could generate three of those and kind of run them through your service in your head or in a flow chart or wherever might be, and think, where are the sticking points to that person? Is there anything that's going to be very difficult for them to kind of access? Also, just in terms of your website, I suppose making sure your information is really simple, thinking about the layout. So having clear headers, I say simple language. I'm always telling people don't use acronyms. You know, anything that's kind of abbreviated or jargon. Other people aren't going to understand what that means. Say, I'm working in the NHS. People would just guess and like, and there's, an example i’ve used before I'm, I'm definitely showing my age, but, WWF, like some people think wrestling, some people think pandas like you like. And that gives a very different vibe, like depending on what your, what your go to is. So that's, that's a very different context. So that's, I think an example of why it's really important to not use stuff that's specific, because also anyone outside of your organization or sector isn't gonna know what that means.

Tom: Yeah, that's so true. And with WWF like I can picture both of those two logos. Logos in my head. Yeah I wouldn't actually know what either them actually stand for if i’m truly honest, which I probably should know.

Katie: So, they're, they're basically in the, I don't know, battle between pandas and wrestlers, a pandas one, which is quite impressive against like professional wrestlers but so the World Wildlife Federation, the pandas got to keep that one. And then it was probably about ten years ago. But I just haven't kept up with wrestling since. Basically, the World Wrestling Federation, I think they added another W, but they might be called something else now entirely. So they would like WWWF. I think for a while. but obviously, that was more of a

Tom: More of a pandas one

Katie: Exactly. Yeah. So which is good. You know, we want all the pandas to be wearing, like, for the environment. so that's just one example, basic enough. So that one was more of like a copyright issue. But so I think a really good example of if you, you can't just guess that people are going to know what you're talking about. Yeah. yeah. Contrast checking. So that's the the web content Accessibility guidelines give you some kind of guidance that's available online, are tools where you can run your branding color through and check them for contrast and things as well, because while it made it really beautiful to have it bright orange like, that's going to be really difficult for people to read. Also thinking about just like choice of fonts. Again, I love a pretty font, but like just simple fonts is the best way for people to have access to information and then having choice around, everything doesn't have to be written down. Use some pictures help people navigate the site. there's also stuff around. Does it still look clear if you're magnifying it because someone's trying to zoom in to kind of see the information? So yeah, there's a lot of guidance out there I think as well. But just being aware of the need to do that is a really good like start. And also trying to for any companies, it's like I said, looking to change their website or build an app or create a new product. Think about that first, because otherwise it's all so I'm sure it's quite depressing then to have finished your lovely shiny thing and then have to think about oh accessibility and you've got to take it all apart again and say,

Tom: yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. And how about like inclusive design as well, like when you are creating it?

Katie: Yeah. so part of the inclusion aspect for me is actually about representation of, different demographic groups as well, because I think that we tend to, predominantly portray certain characteristics, certain kinds of people. so obviously in the UK, for example, I've worked with a charity called The Black Curriculum who are, doing incredible work around getting stories about black British people into the UK curriculum for children that are coming through a key stage 2 Key stage 3 school. Historically, we were never told about any of those people, any of those events which are all really important parts of our history. There's a lot of, whitewashing and so on. That's kind of happening there as well. But they are getting these stories, these amazing stories, and sharing them with the people that need to hear them, like telling these kids about them, but also children in those schools are seeing themselves and their history represented as well, which is just really important. And so I'm basically trying to apply that, I think, to everything that I make. And I'm thinking, I'm not just gonna have a cast of like middle-aged white men in my animations. I want to be representing everybody in society, basically. So that's what I'm trying to do wherever possible.

Tom: Yeah, I love that, it is so important. Okay, so final question on the podcast is a question we ask everyone, what can people do to make things better? And you can interpret this however you like.

Katie: Oh that's fun. That's a fun question. I suppose thinking thinking about other people empathy I suppose, is a is a really good one. I don't think anyone is purposefully not empathetic, but empathy can be a hard thing. But exploring, I say those kind of barriers for other people, thinking about people that have got different circumstances to different to you  different experiences. Some things may not be as easy for them as they are for you. So talking to someone with a different condition, or doing some research or reading a book that's about someone that's a very different person to yourself, I think that helps you kind of. Understand a little bit more about what other people might be going through and coming from. So and that helps you think about actually when you were then out and about doing doing something day to day, this might not be as easy for somebody else. So let's think about if we can change that. Maybe.

Tom: Yeah. Yeah. I love I think sometimes it can be hard to be empathetic to those who we never we never meet or talk to, And I think that's a big problem as well, is that, you know, we can easily consider the needs of those who are very much like us, but we're not extending that empathy towards those who are not like us. I don't share the characteristics that we we resonate with most, you know, and I think that's so, so important is to understand people who have a maybe a very different upbringing or have certain conditions or just have a totally different brain to you. And I think that's just so, so important because if you don't do that, then you will never, ever know or understand what they're like, what their needs are and how different they are and and what's best for them. And equally, you may not realize that you have certain needs that are totally different to them as well, because everyone's needs are totally different. No one's needs are the right needs.

Katie: That's it. Yeah. Trying to cater everybody's definitely, I think in my experience of working with people that are interested in accessibility, a lot of them either have experienced something themselves or a close friend or family member maybe has, an accessibility need. and that's kind of what's driving them. But it would be really great if people were doing that, even if they didn't have that kind of personal driver space I suppose as well. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, to kind of have that as your reason for getting involved, but if you happen to not have anyone in your life with certain characteristics, it doesn't mean you can't start proactively thinking about that anyway.

Tom: Yeah, definitely. I love that, alright thanks so much for coming on the podcast, Katie.

Katie: Thanks for having me

Tom: Where can people find you?

Katie: So you can find me on the internet, I guess am. So, my. Yeah, my business is CommuniKatie design with a K. I've got a website. I'm on LinkedIn. you can come find me on my personal site on LinkedIn. I've got Instagrams and Facebooks, but they're kind of hibernating, so, yeah, I think LinkedIn or my website is best place to find me.

Tom: Perfect.

Katie: Thank you,

Tom: Thank you. Thanks a lot for anyone watching or listening. I hope you have enjoyed today's podcast and also you can check out the transcription as well. It's worth pointing that out because we do transcribe every single episode and they are on our website, which is www.hiveit.co.uk. Thanks again and I hope you have an amazing rest of your day. Goodbye.