The Power of Flow State With Adele Kelly

Tom: Hello and welcome to the Make Things Better podcast, today I'm joined by Adele Kelly. Welcome on the show Adele how are you doing today?

Adele: I'm doing very well thank you.

Tom: Yeah thank you so much for joining me for this episode.

Adele: My pleasure.

Tom: Today we're going to talk about Pure Flow State and maybe some design thinking empathy branding and I don't know let's just see where the conversation takes us I guess

Adele: All topics that I love so I'm sure we'll be fine

Tom: Oh amazing, do you want to start off by introducing yourself a bit more and tell us a bit about your background and what you do at the moment?

Adele: Yeah, my business is called Pure Flow State and we offer sustainable brand strategy for purpose-led businesses. So that means digging into people's purpose, mission, values, vision and helping them get aligned so that everything flows in their business. Generally when people come and work with me they're quite stressed and they can't really see the bigger picture or they've lost sight of their vision. So we take a step back and we look at everything where they are right now, where they want to go and we find the right path to get them to where they want to be, where everything flows.

Tom: Yeah, amazing. How did you get into it?

Adele: So my background is actually in publishing. I've worked on international magazines for many years as an art director erm and I got curious about branding. So I used to live in Spain for many, many years and that's where I did most of my career. I came back to the UK and started exploring different things, always been into design and started doing more kind of logo design, branding design, things like that. And then I was finding that when I was working with people I didn't have enough information to be able to do my job really well and I ended up either asking questions all the time or they were just leading with what they liked and not really thinking about what was going to work for a customer. So that's when I started exploring brand strategy a few years ago and that led me to where I am now. So I've worked with international businesses, startups, coaches, all sorts of people and different sizes of businesses as well. And I found a real passion for working for the purpose-led businesses because it brings meaning into my world and we're very aligne with our values which is really important as well. And now I'm going through B Corp certification which is really exciting. So hopefully in the next few months that'll be all approved and I'll be able to work with more businesses like that to help them move towards a more sustainable future as well.

Tom: Yeah, amazing. It's great that you're working with purpose-driven businesses similar to ourselves. So you talked about often people have an idea for a logo or a design and maybe they can see it in their head a little bit of what they want it to look like but maybe that's based off just an idea in one person's mind. Can you share with us why it's valuable for them to maybe go a little bit deeper when they're considering their branding or their logo and really get into their customer's shoes as well?

Adele: Yeah, I mean the logo really is the cherry on top of the cake at the end of it when you've done all the foundational work first. So you really need to know why you're here, why have you built your business in the first place, that's your purpose and you'll always come back to that. The purpose never ever changes so it's your reason for existing beyond making money. So imagine that times come a bit hard and you're not making so much money in the business. If you've got no purpose or reason for existing then there's no point carrying on in the tough times whereas if you've got that real meaning and purpose then that helps you, it's your North Star and it helps guide you towards a better future through the tough times. So yeah, they need to have that and they need to know who they're actually selling to as well and they need to know if there's actually a demand for what it is that they want to sell. So instead of thinking okay I've got this thing or I've got this idea I'm gonna make it and I'm gonna put it out there, it's more around tuning into what the market needs and what customers needs and trying to anticipate ahead of what they've actually got right now and creating something that they didn't even know that they wanted but when they've got it they can't live without it. So you know imagine things like the iPod for example and Steve Jobs came along and said that he was going to put however many thousand songs on one little device that you could carry around in your pocket. That was inconceivable when he came up with the idea but now look at where we are I mean that's now obsolete pretty much and we've got everything on our phones but at the time it was it was groundbreaking or even...

Tom: Talking about Steve Jobs for a moment, I was looking at maybe like your LinkedIn or Instagram or something earlier today and I saw one of your posts was really interesting it was something to do with masculine and feminine energy and it was talking about how Steve Jobs was actually often delving into a feminine energy in the sense that he had that empathy and was understanding the needs of others and was really considering those things

Adele: Yeah

Tom: And then I think you were talking about in branding often companies can have this very like masculine energy of just like boom boom boom like maybe we're the best like success like driven like these kind of things. Can we come can you share like a bit more about that and also with Steve Jobs I think you said that actually his outward sort of persona was quite like masculine but actually in some ways it was very feminine I've never heard of this like feminine feminine masculine energy at all.

Adele: Yeah it's not about gender so it's not about men and women it's about the energies that are typical traits of either men or women but anybody can embody them so you've got the creativity, nurturing, understanding that that's more feminine energy. Masculine energy is more the drive, the ambition, the logic that comes with the masculine style so you need you need both you know a business is not going to be built on on just creativity you've got to have that logic and drive to move it forward as well but bringing in more of the feminine energy means that you bring in more understanding and that's you know one of the pillars of design thinking as well where you really go out and understand what people need and what they actually want before you start creating or prototyping or building anything and it's a question of talking to people just talk to as many people as you can and yes Steve Jobs had a terrible reputation for being arrogant and absolute despot and probably not a nice person to be around but his creativity was off the scale and and that's a more feminine energy side to him that put him where he was perhaps he could have if he did tone down the arrogance he probably would have been a more popular guy but at the end of the day he was extremely successful and he changed many people's lives

Tom: Yeah and that was through him tapping into that empathy and talking with people and understanding their needs and do you think some brands could could do with doing that more

Adele: Yeah I mean definitely when when you start on a branding journey you need to you need to understand your category and your market you need to look at the competition and see what they're offering and you need to think about getting ahead and thinking ahead of what's really needed now you know what's coming in the future what influences might affect the way that people buy things or the people the way that people do things because people nowadays they they they join brands they become part of brands like the big brands you've got people you know look at Nike for example it's got a bunch of followers because they want to be part of that brand it's not just a transaction where they buy some they buy pair trainers and then they go running in them it's the whole feeling that those particular trainers give them and that's that's created through the brand messaging the way people are made to feel when they engage with the brand and and that's really important it's not it's not a clean-cut kind of this is what we've got do you want it it's this is what we've got and this is going to change your life in in so many ways if you become part of it so once you've got one product you know how that makes you feel you want to buy another one and you keep going back for more so that's where you've got the trust and loyalty that keeps people coming

Tom: Yeah and I read shoe dog class year by fantastic yeah by the founder of Nike yeah I'm not really inspiring and they started out with the founder he wanted to create this vision this world where anybody could be a runner without being an athlete and it's really inspirational how actually he encouraged so many people to like take up jogging when yeah then in like America in like the 60s or whenever it was it wasn't actually a lot popular a thing and that was quite interesting to me because it's like he started off first with like his vision for world that he wanted to see and that was what about like tapping into like purpose really and then it's like the brand kind of came second through him traveling and then going to like Greece and then I think that's where he got this idea of Nike and and the logo itself actually I think they said that that was like basically the Jason one. I feel really sorry for the woman who did create that logo because she was barely paid anything which seems a bit unfair but I'm sure he he helped her out at some point in the future but that started off with the purpose first and then it's like the logo and design and everything else kind of came after that right?

Adele: Yeah yeah I think you know that one of their lines that they use quite frequently is something like if you if you've got a body you're an athlete that's it that's all you need and it's not about it's not about winning competitions it's about the journey and it's about being part of something bigger than you and and that's that's just amazing isn't it and it makes it accessible for absolutely everyone not excluding anyone out of this I mean you know if you look at their the way they promote themselves it's generally you know elite athletes that are doing it but somehow they managed to make it feel accessible for anybody to do you know I know I'm not going to be jumping the 200 meter hurdles anytime soon but that doesn't stop me from buying a pair of Nike trainers and going out and having my little weekly jog and feeling good about it.

Tom: I remember when I was younger I would always I would often like buy like certain footballers football boots and often they'd be Nike actually and then I remember like when I'd be playing football you'd be like when I was like 10 years old I'd be like saying like and it's like Wayne Rooney on the ball you know you kind of like embody this like yeah this player that you now are and I guess the brand can kind of help you do that so kind of going a little bit away from this again but still still sort of staying on the topic of like purpose do you find some like companies and brands can start off with like a bit of a purpose but then like they drift away from it over time and how do you think that happens and how can they reconnect with that original purpose that they had?

Adele: They just need I think as a company grows it's really important to embed that purpose into all the team and make sure that everybody is on board with it and it works the same with the vision as well it doesn't belong in the c-suite it belongs every single member of the team needs to be fully on board with that and be able to appreciate it you know you've got the example of NASA and even down to the the caretaker or janitor if they asked what the vision of NASA was it was to put a man on the moon and even he knew that everybody was on board with it and everybody believed in it and that carries something forward it says a lot. What happens is when you're all aligned internally then externally you become more aligned as well and people get you a lot more but if there's kind of misalignment inside an organization where people aren't completely on board or even just aware of what the vision is then they can't really get on board with it and they don't feel that same passion because you know employees and team members are really really huge part of an organization they're not just there to do a job and go home they're there to really move it forward and make it something special so you have to make sure that that they know exactly why the company was set up in the first place it won't be that the origin story or or be that just you know phrase and it's not something that you're going to put up on the cafeteria wall and leave it there it's something that needs to be embedded and and taught to everybody so that they can feel it because when people have meaning in their lives and that they they work a lot better they're more productive they're happier going into the workplace I'm sure you've heard about the whole the whole thing with quiet quitting where people just basically come in they do their job and then they leave at the end of the day just you know filling in the hours until they go and they're coming to work they're doing something but they're not really enjoying what it is that they do so this works negatively both for the person who is in that position and for the organization as well if you've got a bunch of people who really believe and are really on board with that story then it is much better for everybody.

Tom: Yeah absolutely and it's like that thing of intrinsic motivation versus extrin what's it called what's the other one?

Adele: Extrinsic

Tom: Extrinsic yeah yeah because if you're intrinsically motivated then you may be more likely to get into that flow state as well and kind of just be in that zone where like you're really passionate about what you're doing because that's coming from your own core values going back to what you were saying about the misalignment within a culture at a company, and maybe staff not really all being on the same page. Has there been anything in recent years that you've noticed in the workplace where this has come up basically, where people have not felt quite as aligned due to anything?

Adele: Yeah, I think Gen Z that's coming up now, they are a lot more demanding with the companies that they want to work with. They want to see companies giving back a lot more. They don't just want to work for an organisation that provides a service or product. They want to see something more meaningful. So they want to see work in the community, for example, giving something back, be it on a local level, or be it more widespread globally. And they want to work somewhere where they feel that they're making an impact. There's definitely, and I wouldn't even, I mean, you could label it as a trend, but I think it's more of a movement that's here to stay really, because we've messed up the planet. It's quite clear.

And even if it's a small contribution, then everything makes a difference. And people are much more demanding. They want to see companies take note and think about their carbon footprint. They want to look at suppliers, like who are you working with? How are you treating your staff? What are you giving back to the community? And I think that builds organisations where people are happier and they're generally more prosperous and profitable. I don't have specific stats on it, but I'm sure you could find some.

Tom: Yeah, what do you think has led to Gen Z being more demanding?

Adele: Oof, that's an interesting one. I've got Gen Zers in my household, so I see that. I think they're just much more aware and they're not willing to accept the status quo. And they want change and they're happy to lead that change. And I see that. They're very sensitive to what's happening globally rather than just what's happening in their own households. And these are things that are important to them. So they understand that they're part of something bigger, whereas perhaps other generations have been more focused on the inside, focused on themselves and what they're going to get out of something. I've seen a shift with Gen Z, that they're more open and they're more conscious of everything that's happening now in the world.

Tom: Do you think part of it is because the situation globally is so bad in many ways as well?

Adele: Yeah, it's time to take action, isn't it? Because they've grown up with it. They've grown up in a digital age. They have information at their fingertips, which is something that older generations don't so much. Older generations, we've integrated it into our lives because we've had to, but they've actually grown up with it and even developed it to an extent. So it's a different relationship that they have with tech and information that's available to them. And don't get me wrong, there are negative sides to that as well. I see teenagers suffering with things that just aren't a question for my generation, for example.

Tom: What kind of things?

Adele: Like, cyberbullying and things like influenced by what's on online, what's happening online. And it is quite tragic to see. And the whole kind of mental health pandemic that's happening right now is really, it's really heartbreaking to see that and the way that young people are affected by their surroundings or by what they're seeing on social media. And I've seen cases of cyberbullying in first person and it's ruthless, it's brutal, it really is. And it's quite, I don't know if you find this, but when you've got your phone and no matter where you are, it's with you. And if you're in your home and something negative comes up that's directed towards you on your phone, it's very invasive, even though it is an inanimate object

that is completely separate to you. If it's actually coming into your home in your own environment, it's quite violent, really.

Tom: That's true. And for some people nowadays, I suppose they don't have any escape from that. If they are using their phone and maybe they're getting bullied at school. And then they have to take that bullying home with them and then there's like no real escape and they may feel like they sort of have to be on their phone which is understandable because everyone is on their phone nowadays.

Adele: Everyone's on their phone and you know just you know cast your mind back to two three years ago when we were in the middle of a pandemic that was their only connection with the outside world. They had no other, they couldn't see people, they weren't going into school, they weren't socialising on a you know one-to-one level or in groups or anything like that. They couldn't even go outside and meet their friends so that was their connection which was an amazing tool at the time because it meant that they could still stay connected with people without actually having to see them but at the same time it becomes their world and and it's very easy to to get absorbed into that and A believe everything that you see on it and and B get drawn into it and addicted almost.

Tom: Yeah yeah and in terms of the the branding work this is kind of on a different note again but in a way with people being more aware of companies and their values and with social media perhaps that plays a part in why Gen Z are more demanding because they have more awareness that oh actually this company aren't doing very good things because I've heard about this on social media and then they can also compare that to like a thousand other alternative companies that are doing really good stuff whereas in the past it's like you wouldn't have anywhere near as much information about what companies are doing so you just wouldn't know what's good and what's bad really.

Adele: Exactly no that's exactly the point and and it's good that you know we're finding out more about businesses and and what it is that they're doing and about their values and and ethics and things like that and I've seen that people are nowadays moving towards paying a little bit more and knowing that you know where that everything is sustainably sourced or to a degree you know as far as far as they can people are opting to use less plastic if they can because of that awareness and it is coming at a cost you know and it's not accessible to everybody but I'm finding that where people can they are making those choices and you know fast fashion things like that people it depends on the age I suppose but you know that I see there is a move towards you know finding something that is slightly more sustainable even if it's a little bit better it's better than nothing so so yeah brands brands are having to answer a lot of questions now and it's good.

Tom: Yeah yeah so going back to pure flow state I wonder if you could tell us a bit more about the flow state side of things and how you started working around around that.

Adele: So I became familiar with the concept of flow state from the American-Hungarian psychologist Mikhail Szentmihaly. I hope I pronounced that correctly.

Tom: As I said to you the other week I've read his name about 10 times in different books and I've never even attempted to pronounce it so fair play I respect it.

Adele: Well I hope it's correct if he's listening. So it's essentially when you get absorbed into an activity that you're enjoying it so much that time just floats away and you enter into a state of bliss where you could be doing whatever it is that you're doing forever basically and not really notice the passing of time so I was that really appealed to me as a concept thinking you know wow you know we get out you know we get so busy in the busyness of of every day of running from one place to the next and like with a constant to-do list of like I have to I should I need to do whatever it is that we think we need to do and the capacity to just come away from that and just stop and just let time stand still for you know a couple of hours or even like half an hour or something felt really appealing to me and then I thought okay well how about if businesses were able to get into a state where instead of like pulling their hair out and and getting frustrated by being in the weeds every single day what about if everything flowed for them and like business became enjoyable and and something that they looked forward to and were excited about and were passionate about because you know when businesses start they start with a lot of ideas and a lot of passion obviously, you know you can't get anywhere without some passion for what it is that you want to sell but it's quite easy as you grow and scale to fall out of love with that because all of the things that you need to do to be able to run a successful business so pure flow state is around coming back to that original reason why you started it in the first place and tuning back into that and working out how you could help that ripple out into every area of the business. So you know usually we work with businesses that have been operating for a couple of years or so, so they've had a really successful idea, they've done really well, the business is profitable, they've started to grow and scale and suddenly things have started to get a little bit more frantic and a little bit less flowy.

Tom: It's so interesting because as we were talking about earlier like you could have this really strong like purpose and vision and you know exactly where you want to get to but then as you grow you could end up starting to do more and more activities which you don't actually enjoy that much. So the kind of the vision and like the purpose and the meaning and then the day by day like what you are actually doing and the tasks that you have to do essentially like there can be like a misalignment there right and that can be really challenging. So how do you kind of sort of solve that gap, that problem that kind of can arise over time?

Adele: Yeah I mean I find with founders that often if they've started off a business it's just been them doing absolutely everything. So they start to build a team around them and they're not always great at delegating things, they think that they have to be doing everything. So you've got you know CEOs signing off orders for toilet paper and things like that which really aren't necessary and it's more about kind of getting rid of stuff, stopping completely and saying okay you're in the weeds, you're trying to do everything, you're not taking a step back to have a look at the bigger picture and that ends up where then a situation where they're just getting through the day-to-day, working on cash flow which obviously is really critical for any business to do that. But there are things that if you don't look into the future then you're not going to get to the future because you have to be thinking three steps ahead when you're in the business as well. You can't just sit and service what's happening right now and what's happening next week. You need to be thinking about okay well where are my sales coming in in three months, six months and in 12 months even? What do I need to be doing now to be able to make sure that the business is sustainable and profitable in 12 months time? Especially when you're introducing new members of the team because you have a commitment to them to keep paying them and give them a job and make them part of something with meaning. So that's what we would generally do. We would generally just advise them to stop and then we'll take a view of the bigger picture. We'll have a look at exactly what's happening. We do what we call a brand review and we look at every aspect of the business. So that starts with like the essence which is like the purpose, the vision, the values. Then we start looking at your customer. Who is your customer? The competition. We look at whether your value proposition is right. What it is you do. Is that clear to the people that want to buy from you? And we think about in relation to the competition. What is it that they're doing that you're doing the same thing? Are you doing the same thing or do you need to think of something different? Or do you need to reassess where you're going to compete? For example, if you're competing in a particular segment in the market are there too many people that can come in and just copy you? You need to find something that is uncopyable and it's going to put you in a different position.

Tom: So I suppose in a way humans are driven by habits and a lot goes on in the subconscious. So as a business that's growing it's quite easy to just fall into the habit of doing the same sort of tasks each day and it may be like working with existing clients, making sure that the current leads are going on well and you've got all these different things in place and these systems and processes. But then because that becomes such a habit over time it can be quite easy to forget to zoom out and go okay actually where are we heading in a year or two years or whatever it is. So that's very very easy to fall into that trap and I can definitely see how time makes a big difference here because habits are formed over time and so after a few years you're probably more likely to fall into this habit of just doing the day-to-day rather than zooming out again and going okay what do we need to do in the future?

Adele: Exactly yeah and if you just sit there and even though the business is profitable and doing well if you sit there and rest on your laurels and just continue doing what it is that you do. every day without thinking about the future and where things are going to move globally, where things are going to move in the category, what are the influences coming in that could affect the work that you're doing now and the needs of the market, then you risk becoming irrelevant. You need to be acting before the changes come in. It's too late if you're acting, if you're reactive. You need to act ahead of when the changes are going to come in and that takes a lot of insight and to do that you need to step back and take time out and if you've got a CEO, founder who is busy in the day-to-day of the operations, then they don't have that time and space to be able to think big and that's what they're great at. They're great at coming up with ideas and crazy disruptive ideas because that's what's got them where they are but if they're too busy in the weeds and running around like a headless chicken and doing things that essentially they probably don't really need to do, then they don't have that time for that big thinking that is going to propel their business forward.

Tom: Yeah sure and talking about like the future and the sort of things that businesses need to prepare for and sort of in the context as well of you becoming B Corp soon and sort of this push towards businesses being a lot more ethical which is like such an amazing thing, is there anything that you think businesses in general should look out for?

Adele: Yeah I mean it's not a nice to have anymore you know it's a bare minimum really. A bare minimum with regards to what they have to comply by and a bare minimum because of people who are going to be purchasing their products and services so they need to be acting now really rather than what they should have been acting three years ago but if they haven't started they need to start putting things into place straight away and make time for doing that because as humans we tend to wait until something is very very urgent before we act on it but this isn't the case with this. We are seeing the results I mean just look at the weather and what's happening with that. We are seeing there are definite results to global warming already but people are still not acting fast enough really or still not taking note and I think we just have to keep encouraging people and bringing it into our work. It's a responsibility of brands to transmit that to everybody else and make it high on everybody's agenda because brands influence people so much and they have a huge responsibility to come in and influence the way that people buy things and people do things.

Tom: Absolutely and I think it's important that more and more agencies and companies decide okay I'm actually only going to work with these kind of suppliers or I'm only going to partner with these kind of companies or other agencies because like what you do you know you choose to work with purpose-driven companies and agencies and I think that's really really important because it hopefully will get to a point where it's actually really hard for the companies that are unethical in one way or another to survive. Whereas in the past that hasn't been anywhere near as much like pressure on them so they can get away with just like focusing on the bottom line of money.

Adele: Well yeah I mean I think cost comes into it a lot as well so you know when consumers are faced with a choice you know a couple of years ago or five years ago then they would have said well you know that's cheaper I'm just gonna buy that one. So when you've got the brands that are selling things at a lower cost starting to change their way of thinking then that's making it more accessible to everybody as long as they're doing it correctly and authentically which hasn't always happened.

Tom: I think in a way well not even in a way I just straight up think that the government should intervene more and like maybe put more taxes on like maybe like companies that are selling products that aren't produced ethically or something like that because realistically like people nowadays don't have a lot of money like they just don't and so if I'm in a shop I'm gonna probably pick the cheapest thing if I'm truly honest with you. Look I wish I had the luxury always to pick the more expensive thing and sometimes I can and like at Hive we would you know we ordered some hoodies the other day and they're super sustainable and we've done a lot of research into that and everything else but just me as like an individual I probably am more likely to pick the cheaper thing if it's like only a couple of pounds or whatever you know and I think there is something there to be said that yeah if the government could intervene and actually drop the prices of the more ethically produced things and maybe put taxes on stuff that's lower

Adele: Exactly

Tom: Because the average consumer I don't... think is going to be able to actually purchase the more expensive thing or maybe they're just not going to choose yet and maybe there should also be more pressure.

Adele: They don't feel the urgency, that's the problem. If they were made to feel that you know this is not an option or the alternative option was removed for them even then they wouldn't be they wouldn't be making that choice and yeah it does come down to cost a lot of the time especially when you're talking about commodities you know going to to buy food for example you know is something is you know an apple's an apple at the end of the day if it comes in plastic packaging it's still an apple it's not good that it's got all that plastic but if it's you know half the price of buying it organic

Tom: Or more convenient like yeah think about before this call before this podcast like I actually have taken away something very valuable just from this last like five minutes of this chat because I actually do need to question my own like buying preferences a bit more because I definitely could do better and it it does come down to consumers as well I mean you can look at the macro and think yeah government should intervene more but also there is a lot of responsibility on me like before this like podcast I went and bought some pineapple and yeah that was in like one of these little plastic pots and it's like even that like why'd that do that

Adele: Yeah

Tom: But then if you deep it as well it's like I could have just bought a pineapple not in some plastic but how long would that take me to cut a job and I'm trying to make you know I've got money and survive as well myself so yeah yeah it's a complicated one what's the best approach to that do you think?

Adele: Well I think it comes down to the brand you know a lot of a lot of supermarkets have stopped using the the plastic and you know remember all those bags that we used to have like you know fill up your your trolley with these you know put your fruit in these bags put your veg in these bags they don't exist anymore really but still the the packaging is there but there are ways to make that more sustainable and you know it probably really wouldn't affect the profit margin of a supermarket that much if they did it's just convenience so yeah I mean create a law around it tax tax them higher for using those those kind of products and packaging things like that it's always a joy when you receive something and the company's actually thought about how they're gonna package it I feel a lot better about anything when when that's the case refillables things like that I mean near to me there's a place where because and you probably find this as well there's a lot of stuff I can't recycle yeah from my home and and I'm putting things like I mean tetrapods I'm putting those in like organic waste and there must be a way to recycle these I don't believe that there isn't and but there's a place quite near to me where obviously I have to travel to get there but I can do all that and I can like refill like soaps and things like that as well so it's a bit of a novelty really and I have to go I have to drive 20 minutes to get there which isn't good either but the little things are starting to happen to make that difference

Tom: It makes me think you know I'd love and this is me with like my Hive IT tech sort of brain on and I don't know if this exists so if anyone listening or watching does know of anything like this then please do reach out but it'd be so good to have an app where you could just like go on your phone and then you have like any like very small decision like yeah like recycling something or like buying like pineapple at the shop and you can just see like what is the most sort of environmentally friendly like option right now and then it just gives you it straight away or like it tells you where the nearest like recycling thing is yeah whatever you have and you just like you take a photo of it and then it will just like go and retrieve some like data from somewhere and figure out like okay well you need to do this with this yeah that would just change the world so much it'd be so awesome

Adele: Yeah well I mean they can put it directly on the packaging as well really you know make it clear make it clear what you need to do with that once you finish with it and make it clear where it's gonna go and what's gonna happen to it and again that's the responsibility of the brand there is an app called I think it's called think dirty but might have to check that where you can check the ingredients on on any product and see how sustainable it is and whether it's good or bad for you and the environment really I know that exists but yeah there's got to be an app for all these things and that this is a whole business that can be created around it this is what people need and that's about anticipating needs of the future people will need to know they do need to know right now about what's the best option for them with any product

Tom: Yeah absolutely so do you think there's anything that a business maybe should should do at the moment that you've noticed that perhaps not doing from your experience, like working with businesses?

Adele: Just small things. This has come from going through the BCUT certification myself and examining what I'm doing. There are small things that you can do, like look at your waste. Where is your waste going? Are you recycling everything that you absolutely can? And that's like checking in with the people that come in. If you have an office, check in with the people that come and remove your waste. And if you've got remote workers, which most companies have these days, they can still be looked at and encouraged to recycle, even if they're not. And then look at the carbon footprint as well. So they could be moving towards having a green website, for example, which I'm sure Hive are very on top of. Look at the hosting. Is that green? Small things like that. And then any kind of things that do they need to print things? Is that sustainably sourced? Is the paper recycled paper? Are the inks recyclable inks? Do you actually really need to print in the first place? And if you do, well, there are guidelines around that and your printer will be able to guide you. And then think about the circular economy as well. It's not all about recycling. It's about reusing, which is better than recycling, because recycling is actually a process in itself that something has to go through. So if you purchase something that can be reused in some way, you know, companies like Apple, they'll take your old products back when you finish with them. And then they kind of do stuff with them. I don't know exactly what, but they can use the parts and they can create something else from that. So think about the products. You know, Apple products are expensive, but they have a lifespan that's different. It's not just, you know, buy and chuck it away at the end of it. It's like, you know, give it back to Apple and it'll be regenerated. Hewlett-Packard and other printers are doing things like that as well with cartridges and actual printers themselves. So yeah, definitely worth looking into those. And those are just like quick, easy wins that you can do very easily.

Tom: There's so much to be aware of. Like, I guess you can kind of go and just analyse almost everything you do and probably find out a better solution to a lot of it anyway. Yeah.

Adele: There are always alternatives.

Tom: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You think in a way, because there is so much information out there and so many considerations to make nowadays, just in general, it can actually be harder to get into the flow state because in a sense, there's more to think about. And in the flow state, there's almost like this absence of thought.

Adele: Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, we're all spinning so many plates, aren't we? And I think in that respect, I would encourage people just to take time out. And I would do that in business and in personal life as well. You know, just get to the end of the day and give yourself 15 minutes of just sitting there doing nothing.

Tom: What do you do to take time out?

Adele: I do yoga. That's kind of saved me. But I know that my mind just is constantly rattling the whole time. And when I go into yoga, I know that for an hour, I'm just concentrated on breathing. And if I don't concentrate on breathing, then I won't breathe. Or I'll get out of the flow of the yoga that I'm doing. So that actually stops me. And then when I come out of that, I just feel completely reset. And swimming as well. I find it with swimming. So I just swim up and down. That's all I do. I just swim up and down, but I'm counting my lengths. So if I miss a number, because my mind starts going somewhere else, then I get worried. I think, oh God, have I done too many? How many have I done? I need to do 64 because that's a mile. And if I go over, I don't really want to go over because I haven't got that much time to go in and do it. But if I'm under, then I'll be frustrated with myself that I haven't actually swum a mile. So yeah, I just literally think of the number as I'm swimming up and then the next number as I'm swimming down. And that stops me as well from overthinking and just stops my brain. It just gives you a reset. And I know every time after I've done yoga and after I've done my swim, my whole day is completely different.

Tom: Yeah. Yeah. That's really nice to hear. And it's similar for me. Yesterday, yeah I was having a bad day. I hadn't slept too well. And I was just like so, so tired yesterday. And I was just a bit all over the place mentally, just kind of getting distracted, trying to do some editing of a podcast. And I was like, talking to somebody on Slack, and yeah, I just wasn't really concentrating, and I just didn't feel so great. And then I played football in the evening, and then after football, I went and did an hour's meditation, and then I got an early night, and then I woke up today, and I was like, oh, okay, I'm all right again now, you know? So it's really nice sometimes to just kind of have a minute away from technology as well. I find that really challenging personally. It's just something I'm still working on. You know, I wanna reduce my screen time, but I'm still going on my phone too much, and that's what definitely takes me out of that flow state where you are just kind of being productive and also doing something about really thinking too much.

Adele: Can you set yourself some kind of parameters around that and boundaries where you say, okay, I'm gonna check my phone when I get into work, I'm gonna check it at lunchtime?

Tom: Yeah, I probably should, to be honest with you. I don't really have any guidelines for myself for the moment. I've not found any way to restrict myself, so it's something I should certainly consider working on a bit more, but I don't know what the best approach to it is. I think sometimes it's hardest to stop doing something when you know there's also a massive value to doing it. So with my phone, it's like, I do need my phone for work, and then at the same time, it's very distracting.

Adele: Yeah, but imagine, you know, with phones, and we carry them on us all the time, people seem to think that we are accessible 24-7, and they can just ping us and we'll message straight back, but a lot of the time, it's not even necessary. And some of the requests that you get is because they're too lazy to actually go and find the solution on their own. So by delaying your response, then they're probably gonna go and find out the solution for themselves, which is what they should be doing in the first place, really.

Tom: That's interesting.

Adele: And it's not gonna harm anyone if you don't get back to someone after like 15, 20 minutes, you know? And if anything is really urgent, then they'll phone.

Tom: Yeah, yeah, you're right.

Adele: They're gonna phone you if it's really urgent. But emails and things like that, I think it's fine to leave for a few hours.

Tom: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah. No, it's a good reminder. I should probably take that on board and put my phone away for a little bit more. I used to put it in the locker at work sometimes, and that quite helped. So I might just start doing that again.

Adele: Yeah, and it's a habit, like you say. We create these habits, and then it just becomes normal. And I don't think, I mean, I have my phone generally on Do Not Disturb anyway, because I'd never get anything done if it was going off all the time. I'm on my laptop, so I can read emails and things like that whenever I want to. But I try and kind of check my phone when I get into the office, and then I leave it until maybe lunchtime and then I check it again then. Because if not, it breaks your concentration. So there are some statistics around this where I think once you come out of a concentration, a concentrating-

Tom: Takes like 20 minutes to get back into it, right?

Adele: Takes 20 minutes to get back into it, yeah. I heard that before as well. So you've lost it.

Tom: Yeah, it's so interesting. You've lost that flow. Because, yeah, you could literally be so much more productive at work if you didn't just go on your phone.

Adele: Yeah, you could probably work half the time.

Tom: Yeah, you really could. But on that point, I mean, working nine to five, what's your opinion on that? Because eight hours, to me, seems like a long time throughout a day, right? And flow state from the things I've read seems to be something that you can only really tap into for maybe a few hours a day.

Adele: Yeah, and I would say that as well. And I think anybody can just look at themselves and think, how productive actually am I in a day? And if you force yourself to sit at desk for eight hours, you can guarantee that productive time, and that's probably about three or four at the most, really. So some people do spurts. They do sprints throughout the day. So they'll work for two hours, take some time off, and then go back to it for a couple of hours. Pomodoro timer is actually quite useful. I use that quite a lot, which is 25 minutes and then a five-minute break. And then you do that three times, and then it's a 15-minute break after that. So that's another way of doing it, to make sure you get those, and you move as well. Make sure you move. You're not just sat at the desk all the time. A lot of companies are moving to four-day weeks.

Tom: Yeah, yeah. You know you said about three or four hours of proper productivity in an eight-hour day?

Adele: Yeah.

Tom: Is there an argument for companies to actually let their staff work for maybe, well, that'd be like four times five, like 20 hours a week or something like that?

Adele: I think that we all have lots of different tasks that we need to do. Some of them require more thinking, and some of them require less. So I think it would be a case of kind of organising your day so you have like maybe three or four hours where you're doing the deep thinking work and like brain taxing stuff that that you need to do and then for the rest of the time do things like catching up on emails or more admin based work that doesn't require so much brainpower and I think in that respect you can still kind of like fulfill those hours. I think really does it really matter how many hours we work because we're not this whole concept of exchanging time for money is is outdated it's about what you can do and there's somebody who works really fast if there is directly exchanging time for money because they've been doing whatever it is that they're doing for 10 - 20 years or however long they're gonna be penalized for for working fast and getting their job done better so that's not fair they know the skills and they're just really good at it because they've been doing it for so long and they've honed it all erm so I don't think it really matters how long we work as long as we get the results that we need or we want.

Tom: Yeah yeah I agree definitely. Any sort of final tips or anything for getting into a flow state or anything like that?

Adele: I think it's important to like I said earlier just stop for a minute and assess and and think about what it is that you like doing and what brings you joy and if there's something you know there's loads of tasks to do when you run a business. Some of the stuff you enjoy doing some of the stuff you're good at some of the stuff you don't enjoy doing and you're not so good at. Delegate that if you've got a team around you don't be afraid to bring in other people because if that frees up your time to do the stuff that you are really good at then that's going to be more productive and profitable in the long term anyway. So just be aware of everything that you do and and prioritize that according to what you actually really need to do or what you can outsource.

Tom: Yeah it makes sense and this is the question that we ask every guest it'll be the final question what can people do to make things better and you can interpret this however you like.

Adele: That's a good question. I mean my initial thought is just about the planet, make things better.I think be more aware of the things that they can do as an individual to help with like climate change or and also making an impact in a way that you know how can they contribute to their local community to help people who are struggling in some way be that volunteering or you know spending time with even you know people or things like that who are lonely and you know need some company that kind of thing. I think whenever we do something that is for the greater good we feel good ourselves so it is that kind of ripple effect going out of I help someone but I'm also helping myself at the same time and I think that makes everything better.

Tom: Yeah definitely yeah I love that and where can people find you if they want to get in touch?

Adele: My website is pureflowstate.com and I'm on LinkedIn Adele Kelly.

Tom: Brilliant, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Adele: Thank you for having me.

Tom: It's been great I feel like I've learned a lot.

Adele: Oh cool, me too.

Tom: And thanks to anyone watching or listening and I hope you have an amazing rest of your day.